Two days ago, my son, who is 11 years and in 5th grade, came home telling me about an "adventure" that he was involved in--nothing school related, he added. It seems that a girl in his class "likes" a boy in his class and wants to "date" him, but he has been taking no notice. ("Good for him!" I thought. In my day, we "liked" one another, but I'm not sure we really talked about "dating"--at any rate, no one went anywhere. . .) Well, my son became involved in this when the girl entreated him to ask the boy some questions--not sure what questions, probably "will you go out with her or what?" and to try to convince him to go out with her. She offered him first $10 and then $5 to ask her intended some questions.
Well, first I told him that she was not going to give him money, so not to expect it. He was a bit disappointed. I further said that if she did produce the money, he was not to take it. Then, I got went off for a little while--good humoredly--about the silliness of the whole matter: 5th graders? dating? Dating (I said, in my parental wisdom) was really about getting to know someone whom you might want to marry. Yes, he said, and when you mention marriage, the kids are like--eeeeeeewwwwww. But when it's dating, they're like--who's with who? Oh boy. Now, I would not have had a conversation like this with my mom. Never. Though like my son, I knew her opinions on the matter and probably would have cast it in a way that made it look like I understood and agreed with her on all points. Hmmmmm. . . But I never would have even gone into a "She likes him, but he doesn't like her" etc. etc. I'm glad he feels like he can be open with me, even about this trivial stuff. Because, I started thinking, this is trivial now, but my attitudes are going to lay the foundation for when things are much less trivial. Aren't they?
Having thought this on some kind of subconscious level, I realized that I couldn't just leave it at "This is silly. 5th graders are too young. This is for people who are considering getting married." So in spite of the fact that he was likely more interested in the second Leven Thumps book, I proceeded with a discussion of sorts. It went something like this:
Have you discussed the Sacraments in R.E. yet? I mean, this year? Kind of. So you basically talked about what each one is? And no much else. O.K. Have you talked at all about how Marriage is like Ordination? [O.K., he's confused, but interested. Good.] Well, both are considered vocations, and God calls some people to Marriage, some people to the religious life, and some people are neither, but live a single life. Also, Marriage and Ordination are two Sacraments that are exclusive. You can't be married if you are ordained, and in most cases, you can't be ordained if you are married. Remember, though, a couple of years ago we were at a Mass officiated by a newly ordained priest? He had been married, but his wife died, so he became a priest. So he is one of few people who will be able to receive all seven Sacraments, which is uncommon. From there, I stressed the seriousness of marriage (which is why I was comparing Marriage to Ordination--because marriage is "everyday," while it's easier to recognize the special significance of Ordination)--the idea that it is a vocation, and as such, it has to do with what God has planned for us. And because it is serious, and a Sacrament, anything leading up to it should be taken seriously--like dating. And that is why 5th graders shouldn't be talking about such things--or 6th graders, or 7th, 8th. . . You get the idea. I definitely suggested that dating was for late in high school at the earliest.
I know there's a school of thought that says that chaste, Catholic young people shouldn't "date" at all, the argument being that "dating" as it's currently defined doesn't lend itself to chastity. True, but the definition can be altered in the mind of the young person by parental influence, I think. I started thinking about this again after reading Dr. Janet Smith's essay on "The Challenge of Marriage Preparation" this evening, which claims that, on the contrary, "Young people simply don't date." She continues:
Young men do not plan for the weekend and then invite a young lady out. Often young people just hang out together and perhaps someday one or the other musters up the courage to ask his or her friend "Is anything romantic going on here?" For the licentious, a positive answer means finding a vacant bed.
I think this is partially right (the latter part) and partially inaccurate, but the point is a valid one--what passes for dating runs counter to chastity. While I'm sure that we'll have to repeat this conversation at uncertain intervals, I think it was important to lay some groundwork with this conversation.
Dr. Smith outlines three stages of marriage preparation according to the Church--remote, proximate, and immediate:
Remote preparation takes place in the home, as the child from a very young age observes how his or her parents interact. Children, like sponges, soak up nearly everything around them. In our culture, that preparation is often counterproductive; children spend their earlier years with squabbling parents and their teen years shuttling between parents who are trying to get their lives together. Even those who grow up in intact households harbor deep doubts about the durability of marriage.
Proximate preparation takes place as one moves into adulthood and begins to think about choosing a life partner. This might include some sort of education in abstinence or sexuality in the schools. I think this period is also mismanaged in our culture. Young people are not counseled to date wisely. They easily fall in love with someone who is not a good choice for a life partner and thus many unfortunate marriages are made.
PreCana instruction and engagement encounter weekends constitute immediate preparation. If done well, these are opportunities to begin to work on some of the issues that all married couples face and even to give a very important final consideration to the wisdom of one's choice. This is an opportunity to teach Catholics who know so little about their faith. A crash course is needed in what a sacrament is, in marriage as a vocation, in marriage as indissoluble. Couples need to learn why premarital sex is wrong, why contraception is wrong, why prayer should be a part of everyone's life, for instance.
Recently, my husband and I were asked to participate in our parish's Pre Cana program. Okay, it's more like ongoing recruitment than a request! ;) While we see the importance, and I believe we would both like to help prepare young couples for the realities of marriage and the realities of Catholic marriage, we have so many questions. One big one is what kind of contribution we could make. Given the chance, what insights based on our own experience could we really pass on to new couples? And how would they fit with the goals of the Pre Cana, or how could we make them fit? So far, we have missed the preliminary conversation because Doodle was sick last weekend. She's still not doing very well, though there are no real symptoms, but one reason I am dubious about whether we could or should participate in the marriage prep program right now is that it means being away from the children for a long stretch on the Pre Cana weekends. But the question of topics is also troubling. Would we discuss NFP, when we would likely stress the difficulties rather than the benefits? We are singularly unqualified to discuss finances, although we might give a lesson about not letting difficult finances hurt the marriage.
But at any rate, if we are not sure yet whether--or how--we fit in to the "immediate preparation," we are committed to the "remote." I know I mentioned to my son in that same conversation that people who are married should be--and should remain--friends. He found this difficult to apply to his parents--because, well, we're parents--but agreed once I explained. He also saw friendship as the basis for the marriage of a couple with whom we are close as a family. I hope he will carry some of this with him, and when the next round of conversations comes around, we will have a strong foundation on which to build.
8 comments:
Great post, LC.
I think it's important to have mention of the difficulties of NFP in Pre-Cana. It's not all flowers and light, in other words. My husband and I have mostly had an "easy" go of it, and I try not to stress that too much with people, because I know it IS difficult for others for different reasons than it's easy for us. (Did that make sense?)
If you are called to help with Pre-Cana, I'm sure you two would do great. But you make good mention of a priority that you can't ignore - being away from the children.
Pre-Cana will still be there when you don't have the kids at home.
But if you're called...
Well, anyway.
I'm taking notes on all this. Luckily - HOPEFULLY - I have a few years before I have this dating conversation with my girls! :)
I think you're safe--for a FEW more years! ;) It's really disturbing that they're bantering all this around this young. But it might be that what they're calling "dating" at his school is not much more than what kids were doing when I was in 5th grade. I guess we probably called it "going out with" rather than "dating," though I guess the terms mean essentially the same thing. Where we thought they were "going out" too, I'm not really sure--it was mostly a meaningless label for holding hands at school. :P I didn't hold hands with anyone at school until college. And even then, one time I was holding hands with someone and we passed a professor whose class we were both taking, and automatically, we dropped hands. Funny, huh?
I'm sure when the time comes for us to help with Pre-Cana--if the time comes--things will be clarified. It can be tough explaining the child care dilemma to someone who only has one child--college age--and who has mostly been exposed to people who don't have the same hang ups (concerns) about child care that I have. She babysat for us a few weekends ago--before Easter, actually--and should know how I am about being away from my babies. I think I called twice in 2 1/2 hours. Maybe 3x. And just because someone tells me that everything is fine doesn't mean that I will be able to stay out for another hour! ;)
I remember being particularly unimpressed with our PreCana classes because the talk on communication was basically about how to fight nice. "No throwing things, no 'you always'" etc. These are not tips that we've ever needed, then or now, and I was kind of frustrated at the dynamic displayed by the couple, who assumed that all spouses were going to have these vast Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus disconnects. And I suppose many couples do -- I know some of them! -- but for those of us who don't, or who already know how to bridge or minimize silly communication differences, that kind of advice isn't really helpful.
I thought I'd share my equally disappointing PreCana experience. My then-fiance and I sat in a great hall and the communication advice we were given was to make sure we made "tub time" - time to bathe together. I remember multiple chuckles throughout the room and an embarrassed spouse whose wife and publicly shared such an intimate practice. My husband and I still chuckle at the concept of tub time, especially given the 1 year old who barely allows for individual tub time.
Not all was bad, though. I did hear a really good panel on interfaith marriage and a ho-hum panel on NFP. The NFP panel was interestingly enough chaired by a couple who harped that it had proven ineffective for them - evidenced by the wife's six month pregnant tummy. It was also the panel in which my husband and I were the only couple in attendance. Maybe everyone else already knew and were committed to it? I must say, however, that it was the NFP panel that convinced my husband to start seriously considering Catholicism. The logic behind it made sense to him and his question to me was, how could I claim to be Catholic if I did not follow this rule? Gulp. He also felt that if the Church was right about NFP then he had the obligation to see what else it was right about. To make a long story short, we practiced NFP for 5 years and he eventually converted.
Back to topic, the best dating preparation I received was at a Methodist Church. When we first started dating, my husband asked me to attend four two-hour sessions related to Christian dating. It was amazing (though a little...unrealistic in some respects)and it made me realize that we, as Catholics, should really do more in teaching our children how to interact with opposite sex in terms of marriage preparation. It would definitely help avoid those unfortunate marriage choices that tend, more and more, to end in divorce. And it may help some avoid those unfortunate sex choices that end in hurt. Sadly, I recently learned that my brother-in-law is divorcing his wife of 9 years. They have two children! It does make it more difficult (though not impossible) for children to learn about that pre-dating modeling/ marriage stage if there are no parents to model good marriage.
Finally, for what it's worth you would make a great precana advocate...but then you already are - to your children. I've thought about engaging in precana classes or dating classes, myself, but...I don't know. The best practical advice I have come up with for couples is that they have to be able to laugh with one another. Okay, end of rant. Can you tell I've been thinking of marriage lately? Must me the sad news about the divorce :)
lc,
I really liked this post.
mrs d,
Our experience with the pre-cana talks on communication was pretty much like yours, completely not applicable.
What was most disappointing was the only talks about the spirituality of marriage were given by the priest. It would have been nice for some of the married couples to talk about that aspect of marriage from lived experience. It seemed like all the couples who spoke had these dramatic stories about how they had survived these great marriage-shaking events. None of them talked about the little day-to-day things. And absolutely no mention was made of the Church's teaching on sexuality, cohabitation, contraception, NFP etc.
The Convalidation workshop we attended was AWFUl!! It was run by two couples who were terribly incompatible, didn't understand the first thing about marriage as a friendship or partnership, didn't really enjoy each other's company, almost divorced but were convinced not to, and learned to tolerate each other by attending Marriage Encounters--FREQUENTLY. To the point that one couple's children tell them when to attend the retreats--when they are at each other's throats too consistently. And these people were leading communication and conflict resolution exercises? Oof. The husbands were both Deacons, also. Possibly so they wouldn't have to spend as much time with their wives--or to give them something to talk about. There was also a HUGE generation gap. That would be one reason I would consider being involved. While I might express some of the difficulties of NFP, I wouldn't say, "It didn't work--see?" That's not really the point, is it? Under those circumstances, I find it interesting that your husband was convinced, Lilybug! And so sorry to hear about your sister and nieces. :( But perhaps in that case, it is for the best. I'm probably not supposed to say that, but from experience, I can say that a bad husband (father) is NOT better than no husband (father)! Thanks for your comments, all! You know, maybe I will one day be in a position to influence the content of a Pre-Cana weekend. It does seem that there is room for improvement! :) And it can't possibly be as problematic as influencing the content for an Intro to Lit class, as I learned recently. :P Or maybe it could... ;)
"Often young people just hang out together and perhaps someday one or the other musters up the courage to ask his or her friend 'Is anything romantic going on here?' "
That's about how it worked with me and my boyfriend. :) Thankfully the next sentence in the quote most definitely doesn't apply, and I attribute that to the fact that he comes from a very strong Catholic family (when I meet his parents I'm going to thank them).
I don't have much else to add to this discussion since we're still trying to figure out what a couple of Catholic geeks are supposed to do with each other when most of the possibilities provided by the culture are absolutely out of the question....I just want to say that there are young people out there whose parents gave them the right ideas. Keep up the good work, all you Catholic mamas, and one day a girl is going to appreciate your son for the wonderful and holy young gentleman that he is.
Awww... I sure hope so! :)
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